Cultivating a Life of Listening and Paying Attention, with Jen Pollock Michel

Author Jen Pollock Michel has found that one of the keys to being a good writer is just paying attention and being curious about the world and your own questions. Many of her books are a reflection of her own human experience of faith and her journey to find purpose and where to lean among all the everyday challenges that we all face from our bills, loss we encounter, health obstacles and relationships. In her work as a talented writer, speaker, coach, and podcast host, she talks about relying on a creator and the guide the bible can be in navigating our challenges. She has now authored five books, including: A Habit Called Faith, Surprised by Paradox (winner of Christianity Today’s 2020 Award of Merit for Beautiful Orthodoxy), Keeping Place, and Teach Us to Want (winner of Christianity Today’s 2015 Book of the Year) and her latest book released in 2022, In Good Time, about developing a more grounded, healthy life giving relationship with the clock. Jen holds a B.A. in French from Wheaton College, an M.A. in Literature from Northwestern University, and is working to complete an M.F.A from Seattle Pacific University. After eleven years of living in Toronto, Jen now lives in Cincinnati with her husband and her two youngest children. You can follow Jen on Twitter and Instagram @jenpmichel, subscribe to her Monday letters at www.jenpollockmichel.com, and listen to episodes of the Englewood Review of Books podcast hosted by Jen. Grab a pen and paper, as this conversation with Matt is full of many insights you will want to jot down. You can listen the podcast here or you can view on YouTube.

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Well, hello with gratitude Matt listeners, my name is Matt Moran and I'm the host for the with Gratitude Matt Show. Our goal with the show is to inspire our listening audience to practice gratitude regardless of how powerful their storm is. We've learned that the practice of gratitude works much like a muscle. The more you use it, the stronger it becomes. Today's guest is Jen Pollock. Michael, the award winning author. She is the wife of Ryan Michael and the proud mother to five children. She is offered several books, some of which are teach us to one habit called Faith and in Good Time, many of which have won awards by Christianity Today. She holds a bachelor degree in French from Wheaton College and a masters in Literature from Northwestern University. So it gives me great pleasure to welcome Jen to today's show. Jen, welcome to the show. Thank you, Matt. Great to be with you. Absolutely. So I thought a fun place to start. And you've authored these amazing books, but I'd love to kind of go back to what your life was like before writing. And ultimately, really, what inspired you to write these books that are amazing in the Christianity space? Hmm. Well, before I started writing, I graduated from Wheaton with a French degree, so I was actually a high school French and English teacher. And I did that until I started having kids. I had a really long commute. We were living in the Chicagoland area, and so I stayed at home. We actually then moved to Ohio. We moved to Columbus for a couple of years before we moved back to Chicago. But those were like pretty busy, crazy years. I did a little bit of freelance editing for a friend, which kind of turned into freelance writing for that friend. I did that for many years when my kids were little, and I never really thought that I would do much beyond that. I wouldn't say. I mean, in one sense, my dad was a writer and a communications professor, so I had a lot of, I guess, just exposure to that world of just writing and reading and communicating. But, you know, I didn't necessarily have an ambition to become a published writer except for when we moved to Toronto, which was 11 years ago. We're now in Cincinnati, but we moved to Toronto in 2011, and that's when I just started to realize, just as a regular Bible reader, I was reading some 78. I was also working on a project, a writing project for some 78 and just realizing like memory was such an important theme in that song. We were in the midst of a big shift in our family, so I just decided, decided I really need to write more personally, kind of keep my story idea. And then once I started to do that, I realized, Oh, I've got actually a lot of questions that really became the preoccupation for my first book teaches to want, which is this exploration of desire in the life of faith. In the context of faith, how do we know if what we want is good, if we're accepting sort of the Christian premise that all of your life is really meant to be surrendered and submitted to God? So why do I write? I mean, gosh, these are like really big questions. But I would just say what has inspired my book is really just my own human experience of faith. A lot of that has been experience of loss and grief. My dad died when I was in college. My brother died my first year out of college. A lot of it is just curiosities, you know, Mike, like I said, my first book just kind of having this curiosity of like, how does this actually work? Am I just not supposed to want anything or can I want things? And how, you know, just how do I know how to want? Well, in the life of faith. So, yeah, each of my books has kind of just come out of these just own my own experiences, my own questions, and I would say ultimately, like, I feel like if anybody picked up any five of my books, any one of the five, I would hope they would just see like a human being wrestling in the spiritual life, you know, like an earthly spiritual life. Like I got kids, I got bills, I've got problems. And yet I believe in a creator and I believe that he made us and has a purpose for us. And I'm always I'm always on the look. Look out. I'm always looking out for like, what does that really mean in the every day? That is beautiful. That is beautiful. And your most recent book, I believe, is in good time. Is that correct? In good time, Yep. I think I've found is a lot of your writings does tie back to the Bible. You touched on being an avid Bible reader. Yeah. And how has this writing itself I mean, obviously you're trying to reach others to develop a closer relationship with Jesus Christ and our Creator. And. But how has it enriched your faith, life yourself? Well, it's interesting to me. I'd say one of the first things is that the life of a writer is a life of paying attention. It's actually you're paying really close attention. You're paying attention to a lot of things. You're paying attention to your own hearts. You're paying attention to the world. You're paying attention to kind of your own questions. And I think that that is the really the posture of faith, I think really requires us to pay attention. You know, I can think of, like just different stories in the Bible. There's a wonderful story about the little boy, Samuel. He's in the temple and God calls his name and he says, Samuel Samuel. And for the first couple of time, Samuel doesn't even recognize it as God's voice. And it takes Eli, the priest, to say, you know, the next time you hear that voice, you say, Speak, Lord, your servant hears. And so it's almost like, you know, the posture of a of a light in the life of faith really is one of listening and paying attention. And so I think that my writing has enabled me to cultivate that as a capacity. I think there's a lot of study involved in writing. I actually have to laugh. I'll just tell like a funny story. I was just reading a couple of the Amazon reviews, the early ones that have come out for in good time, and one of the one of them was like, You know, this book wasn't what I expected, and I felt more like a research paper. I wanted to know what the other you know, I wanted to know more of what the writer was thinking. And I thought, okay, that's an interesting sort of comment, but I at least how I understand my own writing is like, I don't just come to thoughts like all by myself, you know, I try to make myself a student. And I actually think there's an overlap in the life of faith, too, that we really need to become students of what God has revealed about himself in the world. And that also kind of requires paying attention. So I would just say those two things are like, what? First spring to mind that I'm cultivating the life of listening and paying attention, and I'm cultivating a life of deep study which requires that kind of sustained attention that's awesome. You know, I did not. I obviously the show itself is around gratitude and trying to find other people, listeners to embrace gratitude. That being said, I mean, if I, I couldn't do a show around, you know, with Jesus Christ or finding Jesus Christ because I get everybody tune out real quickly. But really my real goal is to inspire our listeners to, if they haven't established a relationship there, to do so. And what I might ask of you, certainly there probably are many people out there that are struggling with that, maybe not even struggling just outright. Don't have a relationship. What might you say to them to at least think about opening that door and, you know, start like learning about what this all can do to their life? That is such a that is like the life question really. You know, it's interesting. I'll tell another story. I had a neighbor in Toronto. Well, our neighbors across the street were born in the former Soviet Union. You know, raised, born and raised in communist Russia and then emigrated to Canada about 20 years ago. And it was in our kitchen that they first heard the story of Jesus resurrection from the dead, which is really crucial to Christianity, is like the kind of the core thing. And over the course of many years, we had a variety of spiritual conversations. And I think one of the things that really was a question that my neighbor put to me that I think is a question that that your listeners might resonate with was Why do I need a life of faith? Like if my the rest of my life is good, you know, she they, you know, made decent money, sent their kids to good schools, you know, and had vacations, enjoyed relative health. And it's like that. You know, that's an interesting question. If your life is going pretty well, maybe you don't see any need for God for a relationship with Jesus. Now, I have an answer to that. But before I get to there, you know, I, I guess I just had to ask her, like, but what happens when kind of the like, like life takes a turn, takes a detour? What do you rely on then? And I think that for listeners, we all know we're all relying on something. You know, there's sometimes people think, well, religious people are weak, they're relying on God when they should, you know, rely on themselves. It's like, well, we're all relying on something. Either you're relying on yourself, you're relying on your your you're hoping that your happiness will be found in your health, your job, your marriage, your family. And I think the real question is, do those things actually are they strong enough to hold your hopes and not just your hopes for this life? But, I mean, if life continues beyond this life, what's strong enough to hold your hopes and the story of Christianity for me is a story big enough for all of my hopes. It says that, you know, there is a God who made the world and love the world and things went terribly wrong when people turned away from God, from his own goodness, his own plans to give good gifts to his his creatures, humanity. And, you know, when you think about it, God could have just said, well, if you want it that way, you can have it that way and leave us to our misery, you know, the misery of our own self-reliance, because it only works so long. But he pursued humanity. He said, I want I made you and I love you and I want a relationship with you. And that's why he sent Jesus to reestablish the possibility of having a relationship with God. I will just say that having a relationship with God changes everything for me. I mean, I'm an educated person. I, you know, have a decent amount of money. My kids are pretty well established. I've got good things in my life. And yet I know those good things aren't like they're not going to last or they're actually not even good enough. Like I'm even. The good things in life don't satisfy as much as we hope. But it's in my relationship with God through Jesus that I experience peace and storm peace and just regular panic and overwhelm of everyday life, which is what this book is about in good time. And I think ultimately, you know, being in a relationship with God means, you know, you if God made the world, you kind of work with the world as it's meant to be made like there's so much benefit to following Jesus and how and you see how that impacts your relationships and your relationship to your work. It just changes every thing. I you know, C.S. Lewis has so many great quotes, but it's like, it's not just that I see the world, you know, this new world by the by the sun, but I'm going to mess up the quote, so I probably shouldn't even do it. But just essentially this idea of like your relationship with God isn't just one thing about life. It actually becomes the thing through which you see the rest of life. And to be invited into a relationship with God I think is an incredible honor. I mean, I think it's the privilege that the good news of the gospel extends to us. Thank you, Jan. And I'd just like to just kind of add some of the things that you just said that I can't agree with you more. You know, a lot of my listening audience know that I've been on this cancer journey for well now over seven years, really four years ago since it came back and I found this podcast, call it six, nine months after reoccurrence. And it's my relationship with God certainly was always there, but it became much more real. And I don't think I could be doing what I'm doing from a health perspective without knowing that he's at my side and you know, just yesterday, just update for listeners. I was I got scanned on Wednesday, got the update yesterday. And not only was I surprised by the results, I think I surprised the doctors as well. They're remarkably impressed with how things are going. So I just I bring that up because that alone, I think, could be evidence to why you should have a relationship. And I would say, you know, I don't know everything that has to do with your book in good time. But I would say it's most important to have that relationship in advance of the the hurdle that you have to face or the the valley that you're in. Because if you're waiting until that time, it's it's going to create more anxiety and possibly more hurt than is necessary without him by your side. Yeah. So thank you. It's just beautiful that you shared that. You know, I love the work that you're doing. I love the fact that it's Christianity based. I would imagine, you know, there's just not a lot going on in that space in choosing to write an author in that space takes a lot of courage because it's not like mainstream perhaps what have you found and how have you been inspired to continue to write in that space? Well, I think you're right. You know, I think in the sense that there are a lot of people who kind of like sort of like turn their head a little bit and think, huh, that's interesting. You write about Christianity, you know, explain a little bit more. I can, you know, a story in Toronto. We actually were out with my some colleagues of my husband's, his business colleagues and one of the wives of the of a colleague is actually also an author. And so, you know, after dinner, there were several couples there. This was the first that I was meeting them. She you know, she turns to me and says, you know, well, what do you do? And I have I should say that she's like a New York Times bestselling author, like she writes murder mysteries, like she's, you know, fairly popular. I didn't know her in I'm not going to say her name because But, you know, you're right. As you're writing more books, you're you're writing more exciting stuff than her. I can tell you that right now. Well, after dinner, you know, she was like, Well, what do you do, Jenn? And I said, Well, I write books as well. And she said, Well, what about? And I said, You know, I write books about faith, about Christian faith. And, you know, she had that, like pause and looked at me and almost like, gosh, does anybody do that anymore? And she said, So do you read the Bible? And I said, I do read the Bible. And she says, like, do you believe in the Bible? And I said, I do believe in the Bible. She said, Like the literal Bible, Adam And even Noah. And I said, I'd love to have a conversation about what you mean when you say literal, because I mean that that you can have a long conversation about that. But, you know, she sort of turned and just said, you know, like became a little more disinterested. My so I tell that story because I do have a very keen interest to help people beyond some of their caricatures of Christian Christians and Christianity. You know, I think we just kind of and I have lots of friends who are not Christians, and I love I love them. I'm so glad to be in relationship with them. And there you know, as trust grows, I often realize that those the caricatured caricatures exist. You know, that either, you know, I'm I'm maybe not as smart as other people, you know, or, you know, maybe I'm super judgmental or I only care about certain social issues and not others and just, you know, there are a lot there's a lot of bad press, I would say, about Christians. And I want to encourage people I mean, just like for anything, you know, like you can read all the reviews you want and that can still use a certain experience of a thing. But, you know, for Christianity, read the Bible. And that's actually what my fourth book is all about. A habit called Faith is actually inviting people to read the Bible who might be very unfamiliar with it. And so what I did in that book is take my skills and expertise as a writer. That's primarily what I am. I'm not a theologian. I mean, I'm an everyday Christian like everybody else, but take my skills as a writer and a reader because I have a masters in literature. I'm educated in how to read text and then put those together and then like invite people into considering for themselves the story that the Bible tells. It's really one story. It's 66 books, one story. And to ask them to consider, does that have any relevance to your deepest longings, fears, anxieties and hopes? And I think when people actually bring their own human experience and they like really read the Bible, not that everybody will accept it, but there are a lot of people are going to go, Wow, this actually makes sense in the world. It makes sense of what it means to be human. It makes sense of why we're so disappointed by injustice in the world. And actually, could I really hope that despite being as bad as I know, I know myself to be, could it really be true that God loves me and that God plans for my transformation and change? I mean, you have listeners, I'm sure Matt, who we're in a new year, people are making resolutions and we know what happens with resolutions. Like so often we fall off the bandwagon and we aren't able to achieve the change that we want for ourselves. It's like, well, you know, Christianity says change is possible. Not going to be about your own efforts, only you know, it's really about God's grace being active in your life. And I've seen that change. I've been walking in relationship with Jesus for 30 years now, 33 years, actually. I'm 48. I would say I became a Christian when I was 15, 16. And like I've seen real change in my life. And like, so it's like testimonial here. Like I'm not perfect. I still have struggles, but God has been so real to me and I think he's working real change in my life. That's awesome. So there's a have to there's a Christian comedian. I know it's difficult to like, say, but his name this guy's name is Jeff Allen. He's remarkable. I follow him on Instagram. And I have to tell you this story just because it some of what you just said reminded me of that before he was Christian. He was a he was a drunk alcoholic traveling from, you know, one comedy club to another. But there was this guy that would all he was on that circuit as well. And he was full of life. And one day this guy invited him to go out and play golf together. And they actually played golf in Columbus, Ohio. He talks about it and when they're in the middle of the round, he said something that kind of cut you, Jeff. And he goes, Where do you hear that? He goes, The Bible. It's in the Bible. And Jeff goes, The Bible. Who reads the Bible is, Well, I read the Bible. Well, Jeff goes, Well, I'm atheist. He goes, Why are you atheist? He goes, I just don't believe in that stuff. He goes, Well, have you ever read the Bible? He goes, No, I've never read the Bible. He goes, You're not an atheist. You're a moron. He goes, You're a moron because you've never taken the time to read the Bible. If you read the Bible and then didn't believe in it, and then you could call you're an atheist, but don't call yourself an atheist until you read the Bible and understand everything. If you still don't believe, then you can call yourself an atheist. So now Jeff is he turned, now he's full on and all he's doing is comedy and he's incorporating the Bible and Christian acts and so on and so forth. He's a really remarkable guy. But I had I thought it was appropriate to tell this story. That's a good story. Yeah. So I know in the most recent book you have that is it The Eight Habits, is that right? Yeah, exactly. Yeah. One of them is in Joy. I'd love to hear how that one in particular became part of the eight habits, because I think we all want to enjoy our life. So, you know, the whole book is about it's sort of an exploration and I would say interrogation of time management. This whole idea that, you know, the best thing you can do in life is get a whole bunch of stuff done and your best life is your most you know, your best self is your most productive self, your most. You know, you're at your best when you're working most efficiently. And it's like, well, that's, you know, maybe describes like, you know, a good, healthy day. But whenever you have a health crisis or you suffer a season of grief or, you know, you're not your most productive self. And so the Joy chapter, I think, kind of comes naturally as a counterpart or like a contrast to work, work, work or work and be productive and only think about your list and getting things done. A lot of the research actually says that our slowest, like most where we enjoy time most is when we lose a sense of time because we're like so immersed in something that we love this activity or we're being, you know, you're at dinner with friends and nobody is looking at their phone or their watch, You know, hours go by and suddenly you're like, Oh my gosh, it's midnight. How did that even happen? And so I think that that is how God's made us, you know, I mean, he invites us. There's actually just another theme in the Bible is Joy, joy, joy, joy. All, all. It's there's a reason why all the Christmas songs are like joy to the world, you know, because the gospel is good news of great joy. And the joy part of it is that, you know, you don't have to like, prove your value and worth, which is so much of what productivity is about. That's why when none of us can slow down because like, I'm going to get passed up or, you know, I'm not going to be able I'm not going to perform and people aren't going to like they're going to lose a good opinion of me. And so just embracing those moments of joy and knowing that this is really a huge theme in the Bible and that God actually invites us into his fullness of joy. That's one of the things Jesus said right before, like the night he was betrayed. And he's in the gospel of John. He's writing like the John Records. What Jesus, you know, his final act of parting words, which I think is like such an important part of the Bible. It's like, okay, last words, you know, final will and testament. Of course, Jesus rose from the dead. So final and, you know, only one sense and one of the things he talks about is, you know, follow me. And and when you do, you'll find your fullness of joy. So it's just like it was just a natural thing to talk about. I think. You know, as I hear you talk about that, I you'll hear me close this show out. And I one of the last things I say at the very end is Godspeed, my friends. And I incorporated that really on my wedding day. I knew my wife for about seven years prior to even going on a date with her. And I think a lot of people at the wedding realized that and this and that. We got married on November the 21st of 2009 here in Buffalo. And like when I was standing up addressing the crowd, I mean, it got kind of annoying that everybody was asking me like, why didn't I start dating her earlier this and that I was, you know, 40 years old when I got married. And and finally I just publicly in front of everybody, I said, you know, had I tried to date her at the onset of our relationship, it probably would just never would have worked, because what I found is I needed to mature. She needed to come to grips with things and also so forth. But I said really what we were doing and I hope to do this the rest of our lives is we were living at God's speed. And you know that often times means that we're not necessarily, you know, my speed sometimes is I want it now. And I think so often our listeners want everything immediately. We we live in an instant gratification world. And maybe if you could share a little bit about what you've learned about living it, I'll say human speed versus Godspeed. Oh, you know, there's a whole one of the habits is weights. You know, it's this whole idea of God's way with us is waiting. And like, as soon as you start reading the Bible, you just encounter like more stories of God giving a promise to someone, and yet they have to wait. And and I think there's reasons why waiting is important. You know, I think faith is built in waiting. If we just got everything we wanted, you know, right away, would we know what it means to trust God? You know? I mean, we learn to trust God in the difficult seasons and the in the wilderness kind of episodes of our lives. And it's hard to do. You know, I think I you know, I think that there are just, you know, seasons of our lives. We want to rush past, you know, maybe a season of grief. I was just talking to a friend a couple of days ago who is experiencing grief and she's just like, I want to just get it solved and fixed and like kind of move past it. I'm like, well, you know, grief is kind of a season. You just have to like, yeah, you can't go around it, kick on it. You like, you have to go through it and you can't go through it quickly. And one of the things I'm trying to do in the book is actually recapture people's imagination for this capacity that the Bible calls wisdom. So it's very different than knowledge, right? Knowledge you can have at the snap of a finger. You like Google, search something and you have knowledge. But wisdom is something that grows very, very slowly. The Book of Proverbs is a book of wisdom, and it's basically like you got to submit yourself to lots of learning. You got to take risk and you got to try and fail. You have to like be in a community of wisdom, learn from your elders, you know, receive the traditions from them. And so I think that even just for people to just say, okay, we have a lot of knowledge, I have access to a lot of knowledge in my life, but how do I one of the ways we walk at, you know, a more patient speed is just to commit ourselves to what it takes to grow wisdom. So that's a big that's a big theme in the book. And one of the images in the Bible to just even tell us about what this growth looks like is the image of the tree. It's just in various parts of the Bible where it says, you know, the person whose life is submitted to God, who lives according to his wisdom, who obeys, You know, what he says about the world? That person grows like a tree. And the great thing about trees is, is that like they are if their roots grow deep, they can survive adverse conditions. But you don't grow a tree overnight, right? And so that's the patience that's required for growing a tree. The other thing I would say is that the tree is a picture of dependent flourishing where, you know, the tree grows because of the sun and because of the rain and because the conditions of the soil. And that's just a reminder to us, too, that our lives, like all of these things, matter. You know, it's not just our own efforts in life, which I think is often like that impatient urgency. I got to get things done. It's like, okay, where can I be rooted so that I can and with whom can I like being community in this forest of community so that I can grow, so that I can grow wisdom and you can grow incrementally, but you don't get it all at once. For sure. For sure. Yeah. There's a quote on your website I found particularly interesting Brother Lawrence in I'll read it. It says, However many days remaining, I will do all things for the love of God. And I think that that one is it sounds like that's how you're trying to live your life. And I just think how beautiful the world would be if we all just learned a little bit about that quote and lives honoring God. And what would that world look like? Jen? Well, I think we would heal some of the real divisions that we're seeing just all over the place. Right. The thing about the Bible and just this command to love God is like there are two great commands. Jesus said, like, if you obey these commands, like you pretty much have all your bases covered. Love God and love your neighbor. And so loving God automatically means that you love your neighbor and you well, I should say that it automatically means you're on the hook for loving your neighbor. So I can't say that I love God and hate my neighbor across the street or my brother or my boss. Christ, like God's love in me requires me to love difficult people, requires me to seek to resolve conflicts, to be honest with people so that our relationships can be built on honesty. I mean, we have a different world if people loved God because it would automatically like put them into the world with a mindset of like, how do I make peace? Yet blessed are the peacemakers. Jesus said, This is what it means to be made in the image of God and formed into the heart of God is that you love peace. Interestingly enough, my daughter is a chemistry major at the University of Toronto and she's doing a class on like environmental issues. And, you know, one of the things that she called me about this week is she just realized, you know, we can have all the education in the world about whatever particular issue it is. It could be environmental issues. It could be, you know, poverty and homelessness and violence and all of these kinds of things. We can know the good that is required in our society. But like, how do we get people to actually want to participate, want to like, love their neighbors, step out of their own comfort zone toward people that are unlike them? And I think it's like, yeah, if you're a Christian and if the love of God really is in you, then you will be participating in those things and you're not going to you might not be the world changer, you know, you might not be Mother Teresa. And that's okay. I mean, what if every single person who called themselves a Christian made an effort to reconcile conflict in healthy ways? Like right there, we'd have a totally different world. 100%. As you shared that, I was reminded of. You live in Cincinnati. I live in Buffalo. I was reminded of what took place on January 2nd, Monday night this year down in Cincinnati when the Buffalo Bills faced the Cincinnati Bengals. And, you know, 5 minutes left in the first quarter. DeMar Hamlin went down that evening. I'll never forget ever, because the athletic world, the athletic community, sports fans around the world, millions were praying for a young man. And I'm so happy to hear that he's doing well. But I think we learn what the world can do if we all come together and go to our savior and our creator and unite there. You know, one last question I just have to ask, because we have a show around gratitude. Jen, how does gratitude play into our lives as a Christian in following the word of Jesus Christ? Gratitude? It's so interesting that, you know, I think there's a lot of emphasis on gratitude today, which is great. You know, it's like, you know, think more positive thoughts, right? Instead of complaining about what you don't have, name the things that are good and that you're grateful for. I always think as a Christian, it's like you take it one step further. You don't just say thank you, but you actually address your thanks to God. You recognize that not only are you grateful for gifts, but you're grateful to the giver. One time I was talking or writing about gratitude and I said, I feel like, you know, gratitude like all these like, gratitude statements are often like, filled like helium balloons. And they just kind of like, you know, rise to the sky, like everybody's sort of like, I'm thankful for this, but they don't intend necessarily to to say thank you to God. And so as a Christian, I just can't even I am thankful to someone not just for something. And one of the things actually is there's a theme of gratitude and in good time, because I talk about the pandemic and how like early in the pandemic, all I want to do is like manage time, control time, make this crisis go away, or somehow figure out a way to, like, live in control in the midst of it. And something starts to shift for me because I was keeping a pandemic journal like a very long penned pandemic journal. And what started to happen is I just started to name things that I was grateful for. And in the pandemic, when you couldn't just do all these, like, great things, you know, you weren't going to concerts, you weren't traveling. So it was like you got to focus on the microscope topic things. And they became so important. You know, you were thankful when you got to talk to a neighbor. And as you were walking around the block or just, you know, that first daffodil, that first spring, you know, thankful for that, it just all of a sudden grew my attention for these small things. But it's always like gratitude is directed to God as a Christian. And I like how C.S. Lewis talks about that very next step beyond gratitude is praise, because you say to God, thank you for, you know, my health and thank you for this day. And, you know, sometimes even thank you for this trial and what you're teaching me. But the step beyond that is God. You know, I praise you because you're so generous and because you're so good and because you're so patient with me. And how could you be so gracious? I don't deserve these things. And so praise is like that, that recognition of like, who is this God who would just shower gifts so liberally in the world? And so that's tends to be how I think about it, thanks to God, and then praise to God and God. You're so good. And so that's beautiful. The as we wrap up, Jen, I ask all of my listeners kind of a very similar question, kind of tough one. We've all faced struggles in life, challenges in life. I think oftentimes we grow and learn the most about ourselves during those difficult times. But is there a challenging time in your life that as you look back on that time, maybe you weren't grateful for it as you were going through it, But as you look back at that period or that situation, is there one that you can say, Man, that really transformed me in this way? And if you can think of something like that, I'd love to hear how that situation ultimately helped you grow stronger and helped you become the gem that you are today. I alluded to this earlier, but I have these early griefs in my life. I was 18 when my dad died suddenly my freshman year when I was a freshman at Wheaton, and then my first year as a high school teacher, my brother committed suicide. And so it's like family of four, like family of two. And I wasn't even 24 yet. Those losses shaped my life in ways I think that honestly, I'm only now making sense of. You know, I think it's a reason a really big part of why I write. And so there's like this dual I think good that I find in loss. I think the first thing is like to really grapple with what life is like on this earth. You know, there are a lot of people that have kind of unrealistic expectations for life. Like they they think that they're just all every day is going to be sunny, you know, and they're never going to experience hardship. And it's like, well, that's a very uncommon story. Usually the human experience is filled with some kind of loss or suffering or grief or trial or trouble. So I always felt that it was a grace, like a severe mercy in my life that as a young person, I learned that lesson like I didn't I'm not carrying into my life expectations that everyday be perfect. I don't have an idealized version of life. But here's what I know, and I think this relates to all that we've been talking about in terms of walking with God and being a person of faith, someone who says Jesus Christ is real and his presence with me makes a difference. You know, one of the names for Jesus is Emmanuel, all God with us. And I know the experience of God with me in suffering and in loss. In fact, sometimes, you know, God with you in more palpable, real ways on your worst days than you ever would on your good days. And like just to know God like that. I'm so thankful for I mean, obviously, I wish my dad were here and I wish my brother were here and I wish life didn't turn out the way that it did. But I can see and I think really the the phrase for me and it's actually the name of a book that I would highly recommend to people tells us another story of loss and meeting Jesus and finding mercy in the severe circumstances of life. And it's just the book is called A Severe Mercy, and I think that's what you're asking about in this question is those moments in our lives which were severe and hard and yet merciful because they brought a good and it really just speaks to the God who writes redemption stories in in seasons of suffering. This is just what God does. And it brings me a lot of peace as I look toward the future. Because, again, I don't know what the future will hold. I don't know if tomorrow is a terrible accident or a diagnosis or some loss. I'm not anticipating. But I do know God with me and that gives me a lot of peace. Jenn, it's so nice to have you on today's show. I'm so appreciative of all of the work that you do and the fact that you're sharing it with others Listening Audience You can pick up Jen's books from her website. Jen Pollock Michael Tor.com will put that in the show notes, Learn more about her. She's doing some remarkable work that we all can learn from. You know, you've heard me in the past talk about the three things that I think about each and every day as I walk through life, in the first of which is find the courage to be grateful regardless of how powerful your storm is. Second, be truly present to those you're with. You'd be amazed at the gifts that are right in front of you. If you're not present to them, you're going to miss those God gifts. And lastly, pay attention to how you're feeding your mind, your body and your soul. Today's guest was Jen Pollock. Michael, if today's show inspired you in some way, shape or form, subscribe to the show, comment on it, and share with others with gratitude. Matt Listeners. Until next time, find the courage to be grateful. Godspeed, my friends.